CFHC Talkback For News Story #73:
Newest Talkback: 08:55 AM 08-28 EDT

Why the Projections Failed
07:05 AM EDT - 25 August 2000

Forecasting is a crap shoot. When things are going like usual, it's fairly easy to predict like something. But, all the forecasting models dropped the ball Debby for the same reasons the models are wrong when forecasting any weather.

o The atmosphere is very complex, and even though the models use high levels of numerical and mathematical know-how, it cannot possibly catch every cause and effect that the atmosphere can do.

o The data that goes into the models could be wrong, or woefully incomplete. This is especially a problem over the oceans. The recon planes like the Gulfstream Jet help this along, but it's still less than optimal.

o Mother Nature is Mother Nature. Things happen. What Debby did was unforseen by everyone until the day it happened. Forecasters are not "Besserweiser" or know it alls. They are human, and just watch and predict and have nearly unlimited pardons for bombed forecasts. The NHC did a stellar job despite what happened. (I bet Debby is one of those they would rather forget happened at all, though)

This is what makes storms interesting to track, when they do something unexpected. There was every reason to believe it would have affected South Florida, but it had other options in mind.

The Atlantic is unusually hostile right now for development most anywhere. The wave in the East Atlantic already has died to this, and Ex-Debby is still having troubles reorganizing. (It's trying though)

The season is not over. We have had 4 named storms so far, and last year we had two by this time. September is the peak month, so it's not even close do being done with.

Thanks for the many people who did visit this site when Debby was considered a threat. Our goal is to give you opinions and allow you to view the data yourself so that you can make your own informed decisions. I hope it worked out.

Comments or Questions? Everyone is invited to use it. Use the comment button by the story Headline.

NRL Monterey Marine Meteorology Division Forecast Track of Debby (Good Forecast Track Graphic)


Crown Weather Services Tropical Update (Includes Map with multiple forecast model tracks)
Snonut's Hurricane Reports

Satellite images at: [N.A. visible] (visible -- Daytime Only) [N.A. infrared] (infrared), and [N.A. water vapor] (water vapor)--Nasa source.

Some Forecast models: (NGM, AVN, MRF, ECMWF, ETA)
DoD weather models (NOGAPS, AVN, MRF)
AVN, ECMWF, GFDL, NOGAPS, UKMET

- [mac]


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Displaying Talkbacks #1 - #27 (of 27 total)

Projections (#1)
Posted by:
Frank Pellegrino Location: Biloxi MS
Posted On 08:18AM 25-Aug-2000 with id (QRNQSNRTXNS*)


I just discovered this web site this week and find it most interesting, informative and useful. Living on the beach in Biloxi MS, I have been through several major storms; Camille, Fredrick, Elena, and Georges. (Actually rode out Elena and Georges at home on the beach, my house is 18.5 feet above sea level on Highway 90!) So as anyone living on the coast, I have a great interest in these weather systems and want to get as much information as possible. Keep up the great work!

today (#2)
Posted by:
Rick Shade Location: Mobile, Al
Posted On 09:10AM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RQVNXUNWWNQXS*)


best website....period. partly because I can put my two cents in. Now..to Debbie...it looks as though when she gets a little more north and west, she can avoid the easterly shear. But the satellite infrared sure has a lot of thunderstorm activity. When the uppers get right, she will bounce back. Anyone know if she will head north a little at all? Or, is she destined to go west into oblivion....the weather people may not be watching her...but I for one, haven't given up...she will be back.....

A WORD ABOUT WRITTEN COMMUNICATON (I.E POSTINGS/EMAIL) (#3)
Posted by:
OrlandoDude Location: O-Town
Posted On 12:58PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (QYRNQRXNQVVNVX*)


Please keep in mind that while we attempt to create conversation by posting to boards, email, etc. conversations/messages in print cannot replace vocal communication. Since we can only interpret a message with "assumed" inflection, messages that may not be intended to sound demeaning or cert, could be can be interpreted as such. We all should try to be aware that our words may be interpreted incorrectly, or that we may be interpreting other people's messages incorrectly. Do not take things personally, or as the cliché goes.. Don't fret the small stuff...


Hmm (#4)
Posted by: Terry
Posted On 03:25PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RTNRWNRRTNSR*)


I Think the saying goes "Don't sweat the small stuff" but you could have heard it wrong!

Shear, shear and more shear. (#5)
Posted by: Jim Mogle Location: Kissimmee, Fl
Posted On 04:30PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RPUNRTRNRRXNSQ*)


I don't think I have seen as much shear this late in the season as there is now. Almost all of the tropics appear to be under some level of shear. It will be a pretty quiet period as long as that continues.

Miswording (#6)
Posted by: Jim Mogle Location: Kissimmee, Fl
Posted On 04:34PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RPUNRTRNRRXNSY*)


I think 'at this point' is more appropriate than 'this late'. Sorry folks, long day.

SW Gulf of Honduras (#7)
Posted by: Bill Location: TLH
Posted On 04:37PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RPTNQQPNRQTNYT*)


Hi all!

I noticed the last couple of days a swirl just inland of the corner of the Gulf of Honduras (south of Belize). I thought it was an upper/midlevel feature. This morning it looked like it had emerged, and there was some convective development. Now it looks like a small circulation has started just offshore, BUT, it also looks like it is retrograding back to the sw. This is not explicitly related to Debbie I don't think.

This remind me of how 'Kyle' (wasn't that the name of the TS) got started there a few years ago.

This is off the VIS GOES this afternoon. Thoughts?

IHS,

Bill

Fret VS Sweat (#8)
Posted by:
OrlandoDude Location: O-Town
Posted On 04:39PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RQVNWXNRSUNQYW*)


I dont know about you .. but I don't sweat !! LOL.. You are right.. Sorry for the misquote..

more (#9)
Posted by: Bill
Posted On 04:39PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RPTNQQPNRQTNYT*)


OOPS- just ran the loop, should have done that first. The circulation is actually ont he Belize, Guatemala border. Nevermind:)!IHS,

Bill

Great site!! (#10)
Posted by: William winn Location: Crystal River, Fl.
Posted On 06:52PM 25-Aug-2000 with id (RPUNRTUNVQNQVV*)


Thanks for all the info on the hurricanes. This is the top weather site,in my opinion!!!!
I have been looking for a while for a site that has the computer models graphics. Thanks

New Tropical Development Possible (#11)
Posted by: Steve H. Location: Palm Bay
Posted On 08:46PM 26-Aug-2000 with id (QURNQVSNRQSNVV*)


Latest model runs of the AVN, MRF ,, NOGAPS and UKMET are coming into agreement on developing a surface Low somewhere between the Florida Straits and the Bahamas. NOGAPS and MRF develop this feature near the Straits and Keys and bring it into the GOM. The AVN and UKMET develop this feature in the Bahamas, bringing it NW to the east of Florida into the Georgia coast from Mid-week and beyond. AVN has it near Hurricane strength as it moves by the East Florida coast.. Certainly this it way too early for concern, but the models are getting persistent about some development in the aforementioned areas and it should be watched during the next couple of days. Local forecasters are waiting for new model runs today and tomorrow to see if there is more definition of if/where and when , but it looks like (as of now) development (if it were to occur) will start in 72 hours

New Tropical Development (#12)
Posted by:
Frank Pellegrino Location: Biloxi MS
Posted On 10:41AM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RPUNQXXNQYYNRPQ*)


Interesting forecast... Looking at the GOM satellite loop the morning, it appears that something it trying to spin near the extreme SE GOM near the Keys. Can't really tell if it's an upper or lower surface feature.... Checking the buoys in the area indicate winds in the upper teens to lower twenties out of the east to southeast. One bouy northwest of the general area of the low(??) is showing eastnortheast winds...
Could this be the development that the models are predicting

Thfe Flare in the South Western Caribbean is Interesting too (#13)
Posted by:
Mary Location: LAkeland
Posted On 11:08AM 27-Aug-2000 with id (QRNWWNQVRNQRW*)


At the risk of sounding alarmist. The flare up near SouthWestern is looking healthy too.

Deveopment (#14)
Posted by:
Richard (http://www.atlantic-technologies.co.uk) Location: Gloucester, England, UK
Posted On 11:10AM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RQRNQSYNQXTNQYR*)


Well the AVN, MRF and ETA all indicate development around the southeastern coast off Florida, at some point within 48-72 hours. Looks like we need to monitor this area as it looks good now. Post again when i have more details.

Latest Radar (#15)
Posted by:
Richard (http://www.atlantic-technologies.co.uk) Location: Gloucester, England, UK
Posted On 11:25AM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RQRNQSYNQXTNQYR*)


Well the latest radar imagery from Miami indicates some quite intense rainfall beginning to develop around the southern tip of Florida, and around the Keys. There would also seem to be some evidence of a cyclonic circulation beginning to develop just off of Key West. I understansd bouy data indicates falling pressure and sustained winds around 20 knots (or nearing 25mph). This area is also beginning to look good on satellite imagery, and with models indicating development we should start watching this area closely.

New Development (#16)
Posted by: Richie Location: Boynton Beach, FL
Posted On 11:57AM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RPUNQXXNQYVNSS*)


Looks as if something is trying to form just NW of Key West. Almost all models show something in this area or off the Florida east coast in the next few days. Some models even have something on each side of the state. Debbie may give birth to twins. LOL

off Florida (#17)
Posted by: Alex K
Posted On 12:04PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (VSNTRNQTQNVT*)


The convection off Florida looks interesting. If pressures are truely falling, then we will really need to watch this one, due to the fact that conditions look favorable and we are very near the peak of the season.

off Florida2 (#18)
Posted by: Alex K
Posted On 01:12PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (VSNTRNQTQNRPP*)


Is it just me or does a low pressure area seem to be forming between Cuba and Florida?


There have been Hints all Morning (#19)
Posted by:
Mary Location: LAkeland
Posted On 01:55PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (QRNWWNQVRNTS*)


It is probably not politically correct to say this but, there appears to be something forming off the coast of Florida. Whether it has time to be more than a severe thunderstorm is up to the gods of weather.

Florida (#20)
Posted by: Joe
Posted On 03:33PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (VTNRTTNQNVU*)


There some hints that something is trying to form
North of Key West.Right now it looks like its an
upper level low but could become a surface low.There are many showers over South Florida and
Keys.This is one to watch because we are heading
into the peak of the Hurricane Season!!!!!

Joe

Don't believe the models until.... (#21)
Posted by:
Jim F. (http://flhurricane.com/jfaul/) Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posted On 03:39PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RPXNVQNQQTNRRW*)


I am not trusting any models until a vertically stacked system is well in place and the models can initialize off a low and mid level center stacked together after, what happened with debby, anyway here is the Tampa discussion, the miami discussion states there is too much shear. I am not getting to excited about anything until there is a low level circulation..

THE ADVERTIZED E EXPANSION OF THE UPPER RIDGE WILL TAKE
PLACE. EXPECT A SFC LOW TO DEVELOP WELL E OF THE PENINSULA...AND
GIVEN HISTORICAL PRECEDENCE...COULD SPIN UP INTO SOMETHING MORE BY
MID WEEK.



Jury still Out (#22)
Posted by: Steve H. Location: Palm Bay
Posted On 03:41PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (QURNQVSNRPQNQYY*)


Models still conflicting about surface development of trough off E. coast of Florida/Bahamas with MRF still the Strongest and the AVN as well, taking the low pressure area NNW towards the Carolinas Thursday. The NOGAPS is weaker taking this Low Westward across Florida...so we'll have to wait and see. But something will develop in the Bahamas /SE Florida area Tuesday as shortwave energy moves SE'ward developing a low and move NW. How strong and where are the big questions right now. Extended forecast says that right now it will be a strong inverted trough that will bring wind and rain from the easat coast of Florida to Virginia during the mid-to late-week period. With high pressure to the north and developing low to the south this potential system makes me quite concerned here in E. Central Florida given the time of year and the area of development. SSTs are high, and conditions should become quite favorable for a tropical system to develop, not just a hybrid systems as the forecasters are calling for now. The AVN also develops a low pressure system in the GOM during this period sending it WNW. WE'll know more tomorrow I'm sure. That's all for now . CHeers!!

look at this! (#23)
Posted by:
Richard (http://www.atlantic-technologies.co.uk) Location: Gloucester, England, UK
Posted On 03:57PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RQRNQSYNTUNYW*)


good satellite imagery link of the Keys, shows the area we are discussing very nicely!http://www.intellicast.com/LocalWeather/World/UnitedStates/Southeast/Florida/KeyWest/VisibleSatelliteLoop/


Don't believe the models until.... (#24)
Posted by:
Jim F. (http://flhurricane.com/jfaul/) Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posted On 04:00PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (RPXNVQNQQTNRRW*)


I am not trusting any models until a vertically stacked system is well in place and the models can initialize off a low and mid level center stacked together after, what happened with debby, anyway here is the Tampa discussion, the miami discussion states there is too much shear. I am not getting to excited about anything until there is a low level circulation..

THE ADVERTIZED E EXPANSION OF THE UPPER RIDGE WILL TAKE
PLACE. EXPECT A SFC LOW TO DEVELOP WELL E OF THE PENINSULA...AND
GIVEN HISTORICAL PRECEDENCE...COULD SPIN UP INTO SOMETHING MORE BY
MID WEEK.



great observation and post jim (#25)
Posted by: scottsvb (
http://communities.msn.com/HURRICANEUPDATECENTER)
Posted On 06:33PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (VSNRSNQXYNYU*)


said above,,,,

IR Image (#26)
Posted by: Robert
Posted On 08:30PM 27-Aug-2000 with id (QYYNRRWNRPNQTU*)


I just looked at the IR image and check out the bahamas, soemthing is developing out there. The rain started early today in spetrs it was somewhat odd but now we are getting more rain and there is convection coming to the coast where i am from what ever it is in the bahamas, and winds have switched from west to east and with me being in the north part of the disturbed weather, i would have winds switching east if a low pressure area was there and hence if a low pressure had developed so would a ring of convection over the bahamas that i am looking at on the IR

Development Soon? (#27)
Posted by:
Richard (http://www.atlantic-technologies.co.uk) Location: Gloucester, England, UK
Posted On 08:55AM 28-Aug-2000 with id (RQRNQSYNQWRNST*)


Well the models continue to develop the South Florida system, with the AVN taking it to just off the South Carolina coast in 72 hours, the Nogaps and NGM taking it up the eastern Florida coast before moving inland over central Florida in 60 hours, and the MRF taking it into the Georgia/South Carolina coast in 72 hours. I notice that NHC are now paying attention to this area also, indicating that development is possible within the next day or two. The convection remains moderate to strong within much of this system, and being over warm SST's it could well develop if upper level winds become more favourable.


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